Episode 6: Clemency, Community & Native Homecoming
Episode 6. Clemency, Community & Native Homecoming
Indigenous people have the highest incarceration rates in Washington state, but they have few support systems for reintegrating back into their communities and recovering from intergenerational trauma. In this episode, we talk with the first known Indigenous person granted clemency by the state of Washington, Benjamin Brockie. We sit with the possibilities and limitations of getting clemency, life on the outside, and hopes for improving the re-entry process for Indigenous communities.
Show Notes
This episode features an interview with Benjamin Brockie and highlights the work of Seattle Clemency Project. From the Inside Out is hosted by Ralph Dunuan, produced by Megan Ybarra, and edited and mixed by Anvar Hassanpour. This podcast was supported in part by a Scholar-Activist Project Award from the Antipode Foundation and the UCSD Communication Department.
Thanks to Louie Gong for permission to use the image of his “Never Say Goodbye” Blanket, an inspired Native wool blanket available from Eighth Generation. All sale proceeds go to benefit Huy, a nonprofit that advocates for Indigenous incarcerated rights in Washington state.
Terms used in this interview
6164 Petition is supposed to be a means for post-conviction relief based on current sentencing practices, rehabilitation and youthfulness at the time of the crime. This is based on WA Senate Bill 6164, passed in 2020, which gave county prosecutors the authority to decide whether someone could return to the court for resentencing after they file a 6164 petition.
PRP: a Personal Restraint Petition is one that an incarcerated person files with the appellate court to challenge their conviction or seek collateral relief from their judgement and/or sentence. It can also be used to challenge’s a person’s government restraint such as civil commitment or prison discipline.
STG: Washington Department of Corrections determines “security threat groups”, known as STGs.
Transcript
Ralph [00:01:02] Welcome, everyone. This is your host, Ralph Dunuan
Megan [00:01:04] -- and Megan Ybarra --
Ralph [00:01:06] with From the Inside Out by CHOICES Media coming to you from the Washington Corrections Center. Thank you to all our listeners for staying tapped in. We at CHOICES Media believe that inside voices matter and the changes people who support, as well as the issues that promote change from the inside out are important to the communities we all want.
Megan [00:01:24] We've learned a lot about how to come together, how to record a podcast, and how to live our lives in centering directly impacted communities who share their perspectives from the inside out.
Ralph [00:01:35] As our first full season came together, we thought it important for folks to understand a little better the work going on inside of Washington State Prison for us and by its incarcerated population. From how sentencing practices currently work, how organizing groups from the inside out, and what legislative bills are important to folks inside, as well as who on the inside and outside supports us.
Megan [00:01:58] Our goal was never just to show how the criminal punishment system works in Washington state, but to really center the historical and ongoing work that incarcerated community members are doing to transform that system away from harm and towards healing. In addition, we've tried to make an effort to center solidarity over individualism. It can feel easier to rely on a single expert or charismatic leader, but we know that moving beyond white supremacy means lifting up our interdependence.
Ralph [00:02:27] As we bring this first season to a close, we want to shift gears. As we gain a better understanding of the criminal punishment system, I want to share with everyone something that is a little more personal to me. When we talk about all these issues that impact communities, I would like our listeners to think about this reality. Indigenous people are incarcerated at a higher rate per capita than any other ethnicity in the United States. We also have a 43% recidivism rate, meaning that just about half of our Indigenous population will return to prison once released. This is the impact on Indigenous communities according to statistics. Well, I don't think we are just statistics. And so does our next guest, Benjamin Brockie, who will talk about the reality of one Indigenous person's reintegration back into the community, the ups and downs, the struggles and the broken politics.
Megan [00:03:38] Why don't you get started by telling me your name, a little bit about who you are, where you come from.
Ben [00:03:45] My name is Ben Brockie. I'm 43 years old. I was incarcerated for over 22 years. I was recently released on September 15, 2024. I'm currently right now attending UW. After I was released, I started school 10 days later at the University of Washington. I'm from Spokane, Washington, enrolled Native American with the Aaniiih Tribe from Fort Belknap, Montana.
Megan [00:04:13] So when you went to prison 22 years ago, what did you think was gonna be the possibility for getting out?
Ben [00:04:18] So, to be honest with you, I didn't think I would go to prison for this long. I didn't understand, like, I was convicted of two counts of first-degree bank robbery and 15 counts of 1st-degree kidnapping, but I wasn't sure what constituted kidnapping in Washington State. So I wasn't sure how much time I would be looking at, and I never really thought the convictions on those would stand. I always thought, like oh, this is my last year in prison, this is my last year in jail. And about 7 or 8 years into my sentence, maybe 10 years, I started to realize, hey, this is pretty serious and I'm not going home. And so kind of trying to deal with that in and of itself was every day was an experience. I liken it to having one of those giant beach balls that you see, those blow up ones, those big, huge blow up once red, white, yellow, blue stuck in my chest and never allowing me to take a full breath. No matter how great shape I was in, it seemed like I was never allowed to take a deep breath in prison. I, my body, just never relaxed. It was always tense and kind of dealing with that time. I think I avoided it. Um, I didn't want to accept it. So I lived in two worlds, the actuality of like doing time and going through the motions every day. And then in this alternative universe in my mind where I was going home tomorrow and I was preparing myself and, and living this life like, of holidays and imagining experiences, reminiscing about past experiences, just anything to distract myself, I guess, from the current reality of where I was at.
Megan [00:05:50] Did you ever try to get re-sentenced or apply for any kind of relief before clemency?
Ben [00:05:57] Yeah, so I fought my case. So originally I was sentenced to 32 years. And off of 32 years I had to bring 25 years. But the prosecutor appealed that because it was mitigated and won and I went back and got resentenced in 2008 to 67 years. And I fought the sentence pretty much until 2020, 2019. I continued to file PRPs. I tried to get resentenced, 6164 came out. And it was something that we really seriously tried to pursue until we found out the county I was from, Spokane County, wouldn't even hear 6164s unless you serve 60% of your time. And 60% of 67 years was close to 40 years, I think it was slightly over 40 years. So that was just out of the realm. But yeah, it was an extremely, extremely tough fight. I never gave up. I kept fighting. Every petition I filed, I was like, oh, this is it. This argument is strong enough to get me back in front of the court. Obviously, somebody sees that there's something wrong with this. And that's what I fought for, and it just never happened. It was exhausting, constantly trying to stay in the law library, stay up to date on cases, and just looking for that secret recipe that answered all the questions, checked off all the boxes, that got the appellate court to review your case seriously and send it back.
Megan [00:07:22] When did you end up pivoting to clemency and what was that like?
Ben [00:07:26] In 2016, I never really thought I would get clemency. It was just, it was a far shot. Like it was out of touch for somebody like me. Normally you had to have a lawyer and those were extremely expensive. I spoke to a couple of lawyers and they always told me it was like $15 to $20,000 and there was no way my family could come up with that money. And I was making, if I was lucky, $50 a month in prison. So I knew that was never gonna happen. So I wrote to UW, I wrote Gonzaga, I wrote to Seattle U, all in an effort to try to see if they would be willing to pick up my case. And that never went nowhere. Somebody I knew told me about Seattle Clemency Project in 2016 and that I should write a letter. So I wrote to the Seattle Clemancy Project a letter in 2016, and I heard back from them right away and they told me it was gonna take months before they could see me. And actually it took like maybe a month. They came out, I signed on as a client immediately with them in 2017 and I rode with them for seven and a half years until I was released. But even in the beginning stage, like I would still file a PRP. If like a law came out that dealt with age being a mitigating factor of commission of a crime, I tried to fight that. I mean I filed a PRP under that and of course I got shot down on that but I never gave up. I looked for any opportunity to try to, you know, fight for my freedom. It was something I didn't want to give up on because I knew I had a life worth living out here.
Megan [00:08:54] When we talk about clemency, how many people do you think apply for clemency? When you say that clemency is everybody's end game who's locked up, it just makes me think like clemency is Washington State's version of parole on some level.
Ben [00:09:05] Yeah, except parole is such a larger scope to help so many people out. Clemency, that needle hole is so small to thread through. First, you have to write to Seattle Clemency Project to be accepted. Then they have to find you volunteer lawyers. Then the lawyers have to go through, read your paperwork, build a petition, get the necessary documents, and then they file it. Because now so many are filing that process as slower. The average wait time, even after you file your petition, is still a year to 15 months before you get a hearing. The entire process is about two and a half years, I would say two and half to three years. So whereas as a parole hearing, everybody knows when they have a parole hearing coming up. You work towards that, you're slated, you have that opportunity. Washington state unfortunately did away with parole and I think it hurts our system. We actually filed in 2020 and the Clemency Board sat on it for a year before they came back and told me in October, 2021, hey, we're denying your petition. You won't even get a hearing. You can come back and apply two years later. So I wasn't eligible to apply until October of 2023. We got lucky and they reached out and said, hey, we might have an opportunity if you apply. So I was able to apply a few months early in August of 2023, we got extremely lucky and I got notified that I would be receiving a hearing in March 2024. And after you get notified that you receive a hearing, the process then goes to the prosecutor's office who now reviews your petition. And they take their stance, whether they're either A, gonna support your request, B, remain neutral, or C, oppose it. In my case, the prosecution, an opening happened to arise for the June hearing, and the prosecutor was willing to remain neutral in my position, which allowed me to slide into that spot because there really wasn't gonna be any opposition. So I was extremely lucky. And I was released 93 days later after my recommendation, which is extremely fast.
Megan [00:11:01] What did you imagine the process of getting released was gonna be like and how did it actually work out for you?
Ben [00:11:08] Um, so prior to my release, um, I had all this support. I had a lot of people in my corner telling me, they were going to help me, promising me money for funding for school, for housing, for vehicles, clothing, food, everything. It sounded really good when I went to my clemency hearing, was able to recognize a couple of places and give them a little bit of shine and acknowledge that the work they were doing. As soon as we got that hearing, a lot of that momentum carried over until right before I got released. I was told that I wasn't gonna get housing because I was a full-time student, so they couldn't offer me housing anymore. And when I got out, all these reentry services that you hear about in Washington state that offer money for clothing, for food? None of them were available to me. I would call. I wouldn't get called back. Oh, I did get a hold of one service who passed me on to another service. And what they gave me were two T-shirts, two pairs of boxers and two socks. And that was it. I felt like I was being treated like I trying to scam them or get over. Like the way they looked at me by asking for help made me just feel like I back in prison again. Like I was just being judged. That I was having to jump through hoops. I didn't feel like I was supported in any which way. But I will say Andy Ward and Yolanda Spencer from Chief Seattle Club were helpful. They offered me a place to stay at a transitional house. That transitional house ended up getting funding pulled within my first 30 days. So I had to move out. But those two went above and beyond personally to help me out. Really, if it weren't for them, I wouldn't be in a position to succeed as I am now.
Ben [00:12:48] I'm lucky in the fact that I didn't come out of prison with any substance abuse problems. I didn't have any drug problems or urgency to get high or drink or anything like that. And I'm also lucky that I have a really good support system. I have really good people around me that love me and care about me and I had some really good opportunities. But I can definitely see why other individuals who come out and they build these plans in prison about this life that they want to live that's attainable to them now because they've been clean, they've been sober, and they have this plan and they've promised these things. And when they get out and people pull that rug from underneath them and you don't have a support system like I had, it's easy to fall backwards because you're depressed, you're exhausted, you're overwhelmed, and you're scared, and you're hopeless because you thought things would be different so you just go back to what you know. And I can understand why people relapse and just give up so easily. Because the help that they were promised isn't there.
Ben [00:13:43] I know in any type of intervention program or assistance program, it's about meeting people where they're at. And I didn't feel like that happened at all. Like people wanted me to ride the busses where I didn't know how to ride a bus. They wanted me do technology where I don't know how do technology. I didn't feel empowered if somebody just comes and gives me some clothes that they chose for me. I had no say so on anything I was gonna wear. I would rather you not promised me anything and let me build up to my life and know what I need to do, know what, I need to get done. So when I get out there, I know the only person I'm relying on is myself. Don't make these promises to me when you have no intention of following through because all that does is it just slows me down and it distracts me from accomplishing what I need accomplish in those first 30 days, which are imperative to success, imperative to re-entry and rehabilitation in and of itself. It's hard work being a part of reentry.
Ben [00:14:40] It's hard work about being a part of somebody's support system. It's easy to tell people you love them. Love is, to me, love is a cheap word. We use it too freely, we say we love food. We love TV. We love that color or whatever. But I think caring is a different word. I think caring means that you're invested in something. And I don't think a lot of people care. I don't mean to paint with such broad strokes. This was just my experience. And there's probably, there could be other individuals could tell you that they had a phenomenal experience with a lot of re-entry. Luckily for me, there was two individuals there that were invested in me and cared about me and make sure that they found ways to piece together like re-entry resources to help me out. Those two people are phenomenal. I never get tired of acknowledging them and telling how great those two individuals are because they care. They follow through. They're invested in those people that they're trying to help. and it's ironic that when Chief Seattle Club cut their re-entry program, those two people were losing their jobs in like 10 days. Yeah. So it's me makes no sense whatsoever.
Megan [00:15:44] My experience the first couple of months right after you get out of prison is just wild and difficult because the world is slapping you upside the face... And for a lot of other people that first quarter or semester that they're on campus at a university, especially a university as big as UW, it's also kind of a slap in the face because you're like, it's great! This is awonderful university! I'm here. Where is my classroom? Do you mean i'm not in the building that I thought I was in, and uh... I was curious to know how you felt about doing both of those at once.
Ben [00:16:16] Oh, it was miserable. Every day I was overwhelmed. Not only did I have to deal with, like, trying to figure out how to get to someplace, I had to figure technology, too. I didn't have a smartphone right away. When I got a smartphone, it wasn't worth it to me. I just missed my tablet in prison. I didn't know how to work it. And then getting to campus. And just being crowded. Going to school with people that didn't come from my background, weren't in the same age bracket with me, I was just constantly behind the eight ball. Like just the simplest task, like taking notes. I didn't know how to take notes on a laptop. And so like I try to take notes by hand and I couldn't keep up. I didn't know the proper etiquette. Like I said, I got out of prison. I didn't get out from work release or camp. I got off from medium custody and jumped 10 days later at UW. I was released to Seattle where I had no family, all my family's in Eastern Washington.
Ben [00:17:23] So I was by myself trying to figure these things out, riding the bus and riding the train. And that's not an easy thing for people who will get out of prison. You are hyper-vigilant around strangers and crowded areas. And so being on the bus and the train I was constantly around people that I didn't know and I didn't know their intentions. And so I was hyper-vigilant. I had all this stress and tension. So for an hour and a half while I'm on this train, I'm tense and waiting and just uncomfortable. And I get to school and then I go right into an academic setting. And then I ride an hour-and-a-half home and it was just exhausting me. And then trying to figure out how to study, how to go online and read all my, I'm used to having books in front of me and reading my material, highlighting things as I go, of writing notes out. And to like, try to figure out how to use it on a laptop that I know nothing about. How to open Canvas up. It still kicked my butt. Up until my last few weeks, I still struggle with it today. Like still trying to figure things out. I just figured out how to make the best of like what I do know now. And it works enough for me. I still finished up the quarter with a really strong GPA. I feel like I could have done better, but yeah, that in and of itself was trying to navigate a new school, with the bus system, with technology, every day was an uphill battle for me. It was just exhausting. And I mean... Like I said, coupled that with the fact that I had no, a lot of these re-entry services let me down and every day, I'm trying to figure out how to get money together, pay my bills, how to get things. It just never slowed down for me. I didn't go to bed till one and I'd wake up at five every day to start the process all over again. There were times when I second guess like, did I make the right decision? Should I have just got released and just jumped straight into a job on the east side of the state where all my support was? Am I doing the right thing here? So it wasn't easy, it was a hard experience. And like I said, I'm lucky that I had a support system. I built some good friendships while I was incarcerated and I could still rely on those guys to speak with. I had great family and loving support system out here. So I was really lucky. My journey was like this huge project of love. Everything fell into place for me and people believed in me. And that momentum carried on.
Ben [00:19:49] I still have my support system. Those that invested in me, I'm trying to return that investment for them. And make myself available, follow through with the way I told them I would live my life and constantly pay it forward, you know. I am in a great position to make a difference. I consider myself the eyes, the ears, and the mouthpiece for those that I still left behind. And any opportunity I get to shed light on my case, I try to share that spotlight with them and to... And let people know that there's other people that are still incarcerated, that are are still deserving of this opportunity. There's no correlation between long sentences and rehabilitation. And that the way our system is without access to parole and meaningful opportunities for resentencing reviews, our system just eating up people, families, and communities and wasting money. And if we're really serious about reform, we have to be serious about significant change.
Megan [00:20:42] Yeah. So I'm thinking about how I hope that you're going to be one of many folks who get out of prison and end up going to four-year universities. When you think back to what you've learned so far and you're thinking about people you know who might be coming out, what sort of advice might you give them as they consider doing the reentry process?
Ben [00:21:06] I would definitely tell them to follow through on resources. Vet who says they're going to help you get those people to put it in writing, hold DOC accountable. They pass the ball. They pass a ball a lot in there. DOC reentry right now with a couple of people that I know from Olympia are pretty good at it. But a lot gets lost in communication between counselors, inmate banking, et cetera. Even the headquarters, a lot gets lost in that transition. I didn't get my ID until two days before I got released. That was stressful. I never got my birth certificate. I never got my tribal ID. All those things are supposed to be accessible through this reentry packet that they give you and you tell them what you want. I notified them over 90 days before I got out and the only thing that showed up was my state ID and that was two days before I get out and we didn't know if that was gonna show up. So take charge, be firmly invested in your reentry. Do not take nobody's word for it.
Ben [00:22:01] I think those that are in charge in DOC want the public to think how crazy and violent and corrupt the inmate population is. And I think if individuals in the community really knew what it was like, they'd be surprised that it's not like that. A majority of guys are, speaking for my peers that were incarcerated, majority of the people that I were incarcerated with: They're people's sons, brothers, husbands, dads, and that’s the title they really wanna be affirmed with. You build these prisons in rural areas where people have to travel hundreds of miles to see an individual and gas is $4 a gallon. It makes it almost impossible to travel. And I think that they don't invest in the programing. They just like to say that they do these things because it looks good on paper and they can pat themselves on the back. There's no type of empowerment whatsoever in prison.
Ben [00:22:53] I think if individuals saw how they cut corners or how they waste money... The diet in prison is horrible. When you feed people processed food for decades, I'm type two diabetic now. I wasn't type two before I went into prison. I survived off of top ramen. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Like the access to fresh fruit. When we get fruit in prison, a lot of guys will tell you it's mushy, it's moldy. You can't eat it. The salads are brown. We get a lot potatoes, a lot of bread, a lot of gravies and the meats aren't fresh. They're processed full of preservatives, sodium and stuff like that. People don't become diabetic necessarily because they eat a lot sugars because they ate a lot carbs and those carbs become dormant. And that's all prison feed you is that type of food. And so in trying to cut corners on individuals' health, I mean, on the way they feed us, you're setting up individuals that have these health problems from this food that either if they're gonna stay in prison, and now they're going to have additional health problems where prisoners have to pay on the back end to take care of them. Or if they get released, these individuals rely on the public forms of healthcare. And that is still a burden on the rest of society. So I think there's just so many things that are wrong with the system that the public doesn't know about it. They don't think about, and I'm out here now and you know, I'm willing, I'm more than able and willing to try to do what I want, I can to help out in the situation because I know nothing changes, but it changes less slowly when we don't fight for it. So I know it's still a valuable fight, but I don't really know too much about the legislation to be honest with you. I'll do what I can and I hope that people can see that this guy got out of prison and got a degree at UW, got all these scholarships. And if he can do it, there's other individuals. There was nothing significant about me. I just got an opportunity to do it and others didn't. There's still many other individuals that are just as talented, intelligent, driven, determined as I am, if not more than I am. I just got extremely lucky. But there's others individuals that can get out here today and make a difference in their community. So to circle back to that, I don't know how I feel about that. I know I have to fight for it. I'm determined and committed to shedding light on my incarcerated peers.
Megan [00:25:09] Was there anything specifically for you in terms of being Native or Indigenous that shaped or impacted your experience of being incarcerated?
Ben [00:25:20] Oh, most definitely. I felt like our culture, who we were as people, really wasn't respected or appreciated by people. Native Americans and Muslims are the only two people in prison religious groups that get STG'd.
Megan [00:25:38] Okay, so imagine someone who's never been in the system. Explain what it means to get STG'd.
Ben [00:25:43] So STG is a "security Threat Group," meaning you are identified basically as a gang member. So because I am identified as being a part of the Native American Circle, I can be identified as a gang leader for being a leader within my culture, within my people, and the same as Muslims. If you are part of a Muslim Circle, you can be identified as an STG threat, but they don't hold that to Christians who are predominantly white. These are two religious groups.
Megan [00:26:10] Is the Muslim Circle predominantly Black?
Ben [00:26:13] Yeah, it was predominantly Black. Native Americans Circle, predominantly Native American. And even when you deal with like sometimes the Buddhist celebration aspect of it, if it is predominantly white, it's kind of left alone. Because I'm Native American and I was looked at as like a leader within my, within my group, I was considered a gang leader, so to speak. I was identified as a leader and a ranking member, et cetera. And it was held against me and got me kicked out of prisons. It got me sent to the hole for investigations. We were looked at under a different light. So I definitely felt like because of my race, I was considered a gang member, whereas I wasn't identified or associated with being standard type of gangs that we hear about.
Megan [00:26:54] In terms of the work that you were able to do in the Hoops, did it feel like y'all had the capacity to support each other? And so it sounds like there was this clear STG issue. But then also, within your own Circle, how were y' all able to support each other, and were there other issues or barriers that came up in terms of outside aspect of it?
Ben [00:27:17] Everything we did was viewed under skepticism. We gave a lot back. When I was in the Circle, we gave a a lot of back to the community. We built duffel bags to give to foster kids, blankets, dream catchers to give the kids at the children's hospitals, regalia to make for outfits, paintings, beadwork to be auctioned off. And every time we would try to go to regalia to build those things, we were passers-by going in and out. We were always treated like we were up to no good. When we wanted to go to sweat lodge, we were viewed as like we were up to no good by being out there, like we were being sneaky or doing drugs out there. Same with drumming. I mean, we were treated sometimes when with respect or courtesy, but there was always this shadow of skepticism over us. And sometimes that shadow was thicker depending on staff who was available.
Ben [00:28:05] As far as how we handled each other within the Hoop, I think we knew what our purpose was and what we were there for. And so we were to balance each other out and we just stayed dedicated to our mission. We understood what we were trying to accomplish. And we just stayed determined to that. We continued to teach each other songs, we continued to each other to dance, how to perform ceremony. We became our own community within the prison population. And I think it was evident that we were pretty close because there was always other people that weren't necessarily Native American that wanted to be a part of what we had going on because they recognized the purity and the kinship that we had, how close we were. Those relationships didn't just exist out there in sweat lodge grounds or drumming or regalia. They existed within the living units, at recreation, the weight deck, wherever. We were there to support each other. I guess that, they become your family. When you don't have family, the Hoop is your family in prison, and sometimes it's hard. I spent more time with certain individuals in prison than I did with my own family because I was locked up longer than I was on this earth when I was a free person. I saw these people for every day for 22 and a half years, you know, where I got locked up when I was 19, 20 years old, so...
Megan [00:29:19] So when y'all do pow wow every year, are you gonna be able to go back?
Ben [00:29:23] So I can't go back as of right now. I am on community custody for three years. Once you're off community custody, you have to do two years of being off community custody. So I have like five years before I can go back. And with all due respect, hopefully those relationships that I built, I have helped those guys get out. I've seen those guys, get out, I've a couple of people already that have gotten out of prison that weren't supposed to get out yet. Just today, I got great news that one of my close friends went into a 6164 today, and the judge told him, immediate release. So we were waiting at 4:30 to see if he had gotten released by now.
Megan [00:29:59] Hey, congratulations. That's awesome.
Ben [00:30:01] Yeah.
Megan [00:30:01] It's really good. So you're like, I don't want to worry about going back. I want to get everybody back here on the outside. I appreciate that.
Ben [00:30:07] Yeah, absolutely, thank you. Man, it's just, I will be there for them any which way I possibly can, you know? I still take phone calls every day. I try to help them buy people food packages, put time on people's phones. Just whatever I possibly we can do, cause I know that means a lot. I have to remain that connection. That connection, it helps me every day to realize how grateful I should be for my freedom. I don't ever want to take it for granted. Literally once a day, at least once a day, and especially when I'm on campus, it's multiple times a day. I just have moments of just astonishment. I cannot believe my good fortune and where I'm at and how lucky I am to be in this position.
Ben [00:30:54] And I never forget where I came from, how bad I wanted it. When we were talking about legal work earlier and PRPs, I can remember walking home from law libraries. Like you would go to the law library and you'd stay there till nine o'clock at night till it closed doing your brief. And every night walking home and looking up at the sky and seeing the stars and like saying a silent prayer, like, I hope this argument wins. Like, this is the argument. Like saying a prayer over your brief as you put it in the mail, like, a hope this is the one that gets me home. And now I look up at those stars and I never forget those prayers I made and those thoughts and those hopes. Man, it just keeps me grounded. Like even when I get frustrated out here or I'm angry, I immediately get re-centered with gratitude because I'm living on borrowed time. I didn't complete my sentence. It wasn't like I built up and they said, okay, after 300 months, you go, that's your release day. I still have 45 years left to serve. That's always hanging over my head.
Ben [00:31:55] Going through the holidays, I can remember almost every Christmas I would tell myself, this is gonna be my last Christmas in prison cause next year I'm gonna be home. And I would imagine like what it'd feel like. And I remember celebrating Christmas in prison and holidays and birthdays in prison. And you try to put on this brave face and you enjoy yourself, but in the back of your mind, you know it's fake. You know, it's like these are some knockoff Louis Vuitton shoes or whatever. These are some knockoff Jordans I'm wearing. It looks real, but it's not the real deal. Just thinking like, man, what's it gonna be like when I watch this Christmas show at home when I can really be in the season and like really have like a birthday meal or whatever.
Ben [00:32:32] And now that I have those, every day is the first. Every day I experience something new that's like the first time I got to experience it. And every time like I'm just overcome with like gratitude and I think my life is so great. Doesn't matter how humble it is. I am so full thankful for this opportunity because I know others would would love to switch places with me and others are still in there fighting for this opportunity. For me, nothing is promised. It's It's something I just, I don't know how to describe it, but I just don't take it for granted. I am just so thankful for what I have and for this opportunity. Like I said, I won the lotto, you know? I'm happy. I'm content. I mean, I'm hungry and I'm determined for success, but I'm okay with where I'm at in life. My worst out here is much better than my best day in there. I'm a pretty lucky guy.
Megan [00:33:42] Yeah, you worked hard for it too.
Ben [00:33:44] I got lucky, I got extremely lucky. People invested time in me, professors, teachers, my brothers inside, my family, community members, lawyers. I was lucky to be in the orbit of some really significant people, learn some great things, and get into these positions where some doors were opened or doors were presented that I could knock on. Like I said, I'm no different from hundreds, if not thousands of other people that are incarcerated. I don't deserve this opportunity. I just got lucky, you know? Nothing I did was great. There's many other individuals that are doing much greater things in there than I ever did. I still deserve this chance. And it will get out here and make much bigger impact than I can ever dream of making. I just got really lucky, and I'm extremely grateful for that.
Megan [00:34:39] The way I think about it is, you shouldn't have to be exceptional and you shouldn't have to the best to not have a 67-year sentence, right? You should just get to be a normal person who makes a mistake, who tries to show up and do right. And the way our system is stacked, it makes us feel like we've got to be exceptional, like we have to be the best and the brightest and we have to deserve every day we have to earn something that... I think everybody should just get to walk free under the stars. I don't think you should have to earn it. I don't think you should have to be the best, I don't think you should have to... I hope that over time, you and I can find ways to open more doors so that other people can just walk free into the stars and that nobody has to go through these processes that you're describing of just proving that you deserve it over and over again. Because every time you're asked to prove it, you start to wonder if it's true. Nobody deserves that. Nobody deserves that.
Ben [00:35:35] It kind of goes back to re-entry like you think that that ends when you get out, but it doesn't like re-entry? Prove this. Why do you need this? How are you going to get this? What is this going to do? It's a constant process. Like I said, like I was lucky enough not to develop any type of usage disorders or anything like that, get addicted to any type of thing. But I can understand why individuals who suffer from those types of addictions and those types problems in the past, resort to that when they get frustrated out of reentry. Cause these systems, they're not there for you. A lot of them aren't there for like, they promise you they will be.
Megan [00:36:11] And I think it's one of those things where it's almost impossible to imagine unless you experience it. Over and over again, what I see is that the levels of harm that state violence enacts upon people is just so wild and disproportionate that it's unimaginable. And even when you're living it, you kind of just can't believe it's happening. That all makes a lot of sense. Okay, so I feel like I do want to wrap and let you walk under the stars and spend some time with your family. I'm deeply aware of the fact that as you're talking about spending your first Christmas home, you're sitting in the car.
Ben [00:36:50] It's okay.
Megan [00:36:51] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I appreciate that. Is there anything else that you wanted to say that we didn't cover? I feel we covered a lot of ground, but you know, just wanted to make sure I got it all.
Ben [00:37:02] You know, I would say that one thing that surprised me is when I was incarcerated, I wasn't an emotional person. You are taught to push that down, 'cause no one really cares as far as the system or anything like that goes. Um, but I am surprised at how many times I'm emotional that I just break down out here in gratitude. I can't believe my life. And I think that when we talk about like, what would be people be surprised about? I think individuals that are formerly incarcerated are, that are incarcerated currently would be surprised that that harm that they experience every day that they don't even know their experience and what it's doing to them... Until you get out and like that beach ball I was talking about is released and you can take those deep breaths because you become overwhelmed. For me I just become, sometimes I get overwhelmed over the simplest things and I just break down and start crying, like I can't believe my good fortune. And I'm just so thankful for that and I think that I used to be ashamed to cry in prison and now it's just like, I'm so lucky that I get to cry now. Like, I have so many things to be grateful for and it feels so good. And for me, that was just something I'm still coming to terms with. Um, I was just last night, um, at my nephew's holiday recital and at his school, and I just broke down crying. Cause I could remember decades of wishing I could go to these for my nieces and nephews as they were growing up and never been allowed to go because I was incarcerated and to finally make it to one last night was just... It's the simplest things that we want to be happy.
Ben [00:38:37] At the end of the day, we're somebody's son, somebody's brother, somebody uncle, somebody's husband, somebody's dad. And I think that's what the community doesn't understand. We're just normal people who have like made some pretty bad decisions, some pretty foolish decisions, or we're just trying to figure out how to make decisions. But we don't want to be known as an inmate. There's so many other titles that we want to wear. We just want that opportunity to wear those titles again.
Megan [00:39:23] So it's been a real gift to get to meet Brockie, to talk with him and to learn more about his story, even as it's ongoing. In particular, Ralph, I appreciate you giving me a heads up so I could make sure to connect with him, share a little bit about what I know in terms of UW Seattle as a campus community. It always takes a while to find your people. And Brockie's timeline from release to undergraduate student taking way too many credits was mind-blowingly fast.
Ralph [00:39:51] Yeah, and I know you appreciate the help, and you know, when we really think about reentry and what that impact is for folks on the inside, we don't always get the opportunity to adequately prepare to reintegrate. Some people get their cases overturned and time knocked off, and then they're thrust right into the community. So there's no preparation. With the graduated reentry bill, 5219, you know, some folks are getting bumped up to 18 months. You know, this is, this something that will impact me. And when we think about what's available to us, when we are re-entering society, it's hard for folks in the community to really give us a definitive answer of what's, what’s available when we don't have a definitive answer of, what that timeline looks like. It's always a struggle when we think about re-entry and what that means for folks being successful when they come home.
Megan [00:41:01] Even just those basic things like timeline beyond asking for a sort of monetary support or even kind of emotional support, like having access to a timeline, knowing if you're really going to get your driver's license in time. These are some things that they're not our priority bills. We didn't get our priority bills passed in the legislature this year, but there are some small and important changes like this graduated re-entry bill, driver's licenses or state ID that are important and do provide some of the basic things that people really need. And I think most of us, before we bother to ask the question, kind of believe that y'all already have when you get released from prison. And it's really startling and disappointing to realize that so many of us are ignorant of what those circumstances are and how difficult things are for people who've already spent a lot of time, quote unquote, paying their debt to society. That's part of what we were trying to do with this first move, right? We put a whole season of prisoner-led podcasting out into the world without asking permission from the Department of Corrections, all so we could highlight the work that inside communities are doing to transform the criminal punishment system. This last episode closes out the season by reminding us that criminal punishment starts long before a prison sentence and affects people's lives long after they go home.
Ralph [00:42:27] Yeah, and I think the future of CHOICES is that, right? building upon what's impacting our community from the inside out. I would really appreciate all you listeners out there, if you have ideas, let us know. Because CHOICES Media is not going nowhere. And we're going to continue to provide, you know, not something that's censored or politically correct to a certain party. We want the truth. And we want to give you the truth. So I think that's the future of CHOICES Media. And I want to thank all of you guys for tuning in and staying tapped in. This episode was produced by Megan Ybarra and edited and mixed by Anvar Hassanpour. Also special thanks to Benjamin Brockie for sharing his experience. From the inside out, this is Ralph Dunuan
Megan [00:43:25] -- and Megan Ybarra --
Ralph [00:43:25] Sending out our best to all and in solidarity for liberation and the communities we want.
